Don't Take 'No' for an Answer

How a bike wreck redefined my relationship with perseverance

The mountains near Willow Belden’s home in Wyoming, where she treated herself to a weekday of playtime after recovering from a concussion (Photo by Willow Belden)

“I knew I could be dogged about achieving things I HAD to do. But being just as dogged in the name of playtime was new for me.”

— Willow Belden

My mother always told me I shouldn’t take “no” for an answer. If you don’t get what you want, she said, try again. Keep asking. Stick to your guns.

Growing up, I took that advice to heart: whatever the task at hand, I pushed forward with dogged determination.

But in 2018, a traumatic accident left me suddenly powerless to complete even the simplest of tasks. In the aftermath of that experience, my outlook on what it means to back down was turned on its head, and I started standing up for myself in a new way.

Click here to read the full episode transcript.

This story first aired in 2019. Special thanks to Becky Jensen for script editing.

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Out Travel the System

The Ultimate Outdoorswoman

How Harriet Tubman could change your perspective on who belongs outdoors

“Take My Hand” mural at Harriet Tubman museum (Photo courtesy the Tubman Byway)

“If Black folks knew more about [Harriet Tubman] … our collective relationship with the outdoors might look a little different than it does today. Maybe we’d take more ownership of it as our own.”

— Victoria Marin

You probably learned about Harriet Tubman in school growing up — how she led slaves to freedom on the underground railroad. But she was a lot more than an activist and freedom fighter. She was a daughter, wife, entrepreneur — and a talented outdoorswoman.

On this episode, we explore Tubman’s relationship with nature; we unpack how that history shapes the way Black Americans engage with the outdoors today; and we show how a closer look at Tubman could offer new perspectives on who belongs outdoors.

Victoria Marin has the story.

Read the full episode transcript here.

Subscribe to Out There on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you stream podcasts.

This episode was inspired by the podcast Following Harriet and was produced in collaboration with Ingredient Creative and the Virginia Tourism Corporation. To learn more about Virginia’s history and land as it relates to the Black experience, visit virginia.org/blacktravel.

Special thanks to Sheeba Joseph, who spearheaded the project, co-produced the episode, and facilitated the collaboration.

For Further Listening

In honor of Juneteenth, a holiday commemorating the end of slavery in the United States, we’ve compiled a playlist of stories that highlight Black experiences outdoors and celebrate the diverse and meaningful ways that African Americans engage with the natural world.

Listen Now

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Out Travel the System

The Thru-Hike of Misery

What if the adventure of a lifetime doesn’t turn out the way you’d hoped?

Paul Barach on the Shikoku Pilgrimage (Photo by Paul Barach)

“I’d be walking through a breathtaking landscape, but instead of enjoying it, I’d stare at the ground, willing myself to walk faster so that I could get off my feet sooner. My motivation had changed from ‘Be here now’ to ‘Get done fast’. ”

— Paul Barach

When Paul Barach embarked on his first thru-hike, he was expecting a life-changing experience. The Shikoku Pilgrimage, which traverses Japan’s most rural island and takes visitors past 88 Buddhist temples, promised to be a spiritual and meditative journey, as well as an epic adventure.

But the reality wasn’t so nice.

On this episode, Paul tells the story of what happens when the adventure of a lifetime turns out to be bleak and unfulfilling. How do you make peace with the worst parts of hiking, when those parts never end?

Read the full episode transcript here.

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To hear more about Paul’s pilgrimage on Shikoku Island, you can read his book, Fighting Monks and Burning Mountains.

FOR FURTHER LISTENING

If you enjoy this episode, check out Paul’s story “Back to the Real World.” That episode explores how you navigate returning home from a life-changing journey, to a world that is literally and metaphorically on fire.

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Vulnerability is a Strength

Filmmaker explores the literal and metaphorical mountains LGBTQ climbers face

climbers on Mt. Hood during the filming of Who’s On Top (Photo courtesy Devin Fei-Fan Tau)

“When you start at the bottom of the mountain, or you start at the bottom of trying to figure out who you are ... it seems like you are summiting the world’s tallest mountain.”

— Stacey Rice

Climbing a mountain can be a lot like coming out.

That’s a metaphor filmmaker Devin Fei-Fan Tau explores in his new documentary Who’s On Top. The film follows four LGBTQ climbers who set out to summit Mt. Hood. It explores their connection to nature, and their efforts to challenge stereotypes about gender and sexuality — and it offers an inside view into the literal and metaphorical mountains they face.

Devin joins us on this episode to talk about it.

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WATCH WHO’S ON TOP:

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SPRING REFLECTIONS:

Spring is a time for rejuvenation and reflection. Click here to read about what’s bringing Out There team members joy this season, the ways we’re experiencing new growth, and what we wish more people knew about.

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Running Blind

For some of us, isolation won’t end when the pandemic is over

Luanne Burke is an avid trail runner (Photo by Stephanie Maltarich)

“I find myself receiving texts and emails from people more often. … They are trying to avoid isolation, and they are reaching out more. I have been here all along, as have most people with disabilities.”

— Luanne Burke

As more people get vaccinated and the world starts opening up again, many of us are reflecting on the unprecedented isolation we’ve experienced over the past year. Extreme isolation was new for many of us, and we’re looking forward to getting back to normal.

But not everyone can escape their aloneness.

This is the story of a runner named Luanne Burke, who has been dealing with deep isolation for decades and will continue to experience it, even after much of the world returns to a “new normal.”

Stephanie Maltarich has the story.

Click here to read the full episode transcript.

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Why Do We Stay?

In the face of growing natural disasters, what keeps us rooted to home?

Many buildings on the island of Ocracoke are being raised up on stils to protect against future flooding (Photo by Anmargaret Warner)

“Sea-level rise is happening over a long period of time. And we’re asking people to process this information that’s going to happen within the next 50 to 100 years.”

— Dr. Michelle Dovil

In the wake of natural disasters, those affected are faced with a tough decision: do you leave and go somewhere safer, or stay put and try to rebuild your life?

How do you navigate that choice? And for those who decide to stay: what seals the deal? Why do we remain in disaster-prone areas, after losing so much?

This episode, by Anmargaret Warner, takes us to an island in North Carolina and tells the story of one man who finds himself firmly rooted to place, despite growing environmental threats.

Click here to read the full episode transcript.

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For further listening

In honor of Earth Day, we’ve put together a playlist called “After the Storm.”

It’s a collection of episodes from other podcasts that explore different angles to the questions we’ve been asking with this story — questions of why we live where we live, in the face of natural disasters.

Listen Now

Want audio storytelling skills? And a mentor?

The Out There internship is a chance to work one-on-one with host Willow Belden and learn about all aspects of podcast production — from fielding pitches, to conducting interviews, to writing scripts and doing sound design.

Applications are due April 30.

Learn More

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The Right to Complain

If you have a problem, but others are worse off, should you shut up?

As an avid cyclist, James Bennett had a hard time adjusting to New Delhi’s high levels of air pollution (Photo by Ankur Gupta)

“Here I was obsessing about my lungs, while this boy begs for survival on an empty stomach.”

— James Bennett

In 2015, Australian journalist James Bennett moved to India, to take up a long-coveted role as a foreign correspondent.

James was an outdoorsy type: he liked to cycle, surf, camp, and fish. So he knew the move to India's crowded capital city was going to be hard. What he didn’t realize was how the experience would change his perspective on speaking up about your problems.

On this episode, he shares his story. It’s a story that first ran several years ago, but which feels surprisingly relevant again now.

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Want audio storytelling skills?

And a mentor?

The Out There production internship is an excellent opportunity to work with an award-winning podcast team and develop your audio storytelling skills.

Think of it as a mentorship, where you’ll collaborate one-on-one with the show’s creator, Willow Belden, and learn what’s entailed in running a professional media company.

If past interns are any indication, you’ll walk away with highly marketable skills, impressive additions to your portfolio, and the confidence to thrive in a competitive industry. Nearly all of our past interns have landed full-time audio and/or journalism jobs after completing our internship.

Applications are due April 30, 2021.

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When You Close Your Eyes

How a blind explorer experiences adventure with his other four senses

Explorer Christopher Venter doesn’t let lack of eyesight stop him from chasing his wanderlust (Photo courtesy Aaron Millar)

“Sometimes you only see things really clearly when you close your eyes.”

— Christopher Venter

Explorer Christopher Venter lost his eyesight very suddenly, at age 40.

He was an avid traveler, and at first, he couldn’t imagine going on with life, if he couldn’t see. But eventually, he regained the will to live and the courage to explore the world.

On this episode, he takes us on a journey from Sicily to Southern France and show us the world as he experiences it — with his other four senses.

The story comes to us from the Armchair Explorer Podcast, a show on which the world’s greatest adventurers tell their best stories from the road. At the end of the episode, we talk with Armchair Explorer host Aaron Millar about his show, and his desire to cure our “wonder deficit,” one story at a time.

Subscribe to Out There on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you stream podcasts.

Want to hear more from Christopher Venter? You can find his books here.

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This episode sponsored by…

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The Confidence to Thrive

Here’s how you can help level the playing field for young professionals

“When a project is a labor of love, it excludes a lot of people from participating.”

— Willow Belden

On this bonus episode, we take you behind the scenes at Out There and tell you about a challenge that we’re facing as a podcast.

It’s a challenge endemic to the professional world, and we need your help in rising to it.

By the end of the episode, we hope you’ll share our desire to dismantle barriers to success, and that you’ll lend a hand in making the workplace more fair and equitable. (Don’t worry: we’ll make it easy for you to be involved).

Subscribe to Out There on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you stream podcasts.

Contribute to the Out There Internship Fund

All new gifts received by March 31, 2021 will go directly to funding future Out There interns. Our goal is to raise $1,000.

The Stories We Carry

What if your mother was right to worry? Should you hold back?

In 2010, Kitty Galloway walked from Washington to Montana with her partner and dog (Photo courtesy Kitty Galloway)

“Strength and courage do not mean the absence of fear.”

— Kitty Galloway

If there’s anything universal that most long-distance hikers dislike, it’s road walking. Asphalt is hot, tough on joints and tiring.

But the edges of roads, if we’re willing to pay attention, can offer as many lessons as any steep alpine ridgeline. Road walking, as it turns out, has just as much capacity to change us.

On this episode, Kitty Galloway tells the story of something that happened on a highway in Idaho, which shifted her worldview.

It’s a story about confronting the all-too-common narrative that women are vulnerable — victims in the making. And it’s a story about strength, fear, and learning to accept that two opposing truths can be valid at the same time. 

Click here to read the full episode transcript.

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For Further Listening

If you enjoy this story, check out the episode “Acceptance.” It’s about how a freak accident changed one woman’s relationship with climbing, and with her parents.

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Exiled from Ranch Country

When the place you love becomes your enemy

Ranch country in Alberta, Canada (Photo courtesy Town of Black Diamond)

“Nothing in the culture that surrounded me taught me that being gay was ok. … So I’d pray every day for God to make me straight.”

— Heather Kitching

Growing up, Heather Kitching was enamored with rural life. She dreamed of living in the countryside, riding horses, wearing cowboy boots, and listening to country music. 

But when she got a little older, she learned something about herself that threw a wrench into that dream. She realized that if she was going to be her true self, she’d need to leave behind the place she loved.

On this episode, she shares her story. It’s a story that first ran a few years ago, but it’s just as good now as it was then.

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For Further Listening

If you enjoy this story, check out the episode “Out of the Shadows.” It’s about a mountaineer who is changing the narrative about trans people, one mountaintop at a time.

Better outside?

We have had to adapt to a lot since the start of the pandemic.

Restaurants have started serving customers in makeshift structures on the sidewalk, exercise studios host classes in the park, religious leaders address their communities in parking lots, and pop-up tents are the new clinics.

Many of these adaptations have been adequate. But at the end of the day, they’re temporary solutions. Once the pandemic is over, we’ll be glad to go back to our old ways.

What we’d like to know from you is: what has gotten better since it’s been moved outdoors?

Life has been really tough this past year. But do you have any examples of something that’s improved, now that it happens outside? Did you come up with a new idea for your business — something that’s so good you’ll keep it going, once the world gets back to normal? Do you have new daily rituals you want to continue? Changes in lifestyle? Newfound relationships?

We want to hear all of it!

Click “Start Recording” below to tell us what’s gotten better for you, since being moved outdoors. We can't wait to hear your responses — and we might use some of them on the show.

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Common Ground

How do you nurture relationships with loved ones whose values contradict your own?

“I didn’t plan to talk about politics, because I knew we didn’t agree on much. On national holidays, he hangs a ‘Don’t Tread on Me’ flag from his front porch, whereas I’m always going on about social justice and the environment.”

— Stephanie Maltarich

The past year has dredged up a lot of tensions between loved ones. From racial justice, to proper pandemic behavior, to a highly politicized presidential election, many of us have been forced into difficult conversations with family and close friends.

How do we nurture our relationships with loved ones, when the values that are central to our being are challenged?

On this episode, Stephanie Maltarich tells the story of a trip she took with her father in rural Ohio. The week they spent together outdoors highlighted the deep divides that existed in their politics and values, but their conversations around the campfire also laid some groundwork for reconciling with those divides.

Click here to read the full episode transcript.

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If you enjoy this episode, you might also like an episode called “The Truths We Hold.” It’s a story about our beliefs — about things we’re brought up to know to be true. And about what causes us to question them.

Better Outside?

We have had to adapt to a lot since the start of the pandemic.

Restaurants have started serving customers in makeshift structures on the sidewalk, exercise studios host classes in the park, religious leaders address their communities in parking lots, and pop-up tents are the new clinics.

Many of these adaptations have been adequate. But at the end of the day, they’re temporary solutions. Once the pandemic is over, we’ll be glad to go back to our old ways.

What we’d like to know from you is: what has gotten better since it’s been moved outdoors?

Life has been really tough this past year. But do you have any examples of something that’s improved, now that it happens outside? Did you come up with a new idea for your business — something that’s so good you’ll keep it going, once the world gets back to normal? Do you have new daily rituals you want to continue? Changes in lifestyle? Newfound relationships?

We want to hear all of it!

Click “Start Recording” below to tell us what’s gotten better for you, since being moved outdoors. We can't wait to hear your responses — and we might use some of them on the show.

This episode sponsored by

Click here for a free consultation.

For 20% off your order at athleticbrewing.com, enter the promo code “OUTTHERE20” at checkout.

For 10% off your first month of counseling, click here.

The Three-Year-Old Thru-Hiker

What makes it possible for a tiny person to accomplish a huge feat?

Tara Karineh and her daughter, Acacia, hike the Trans-Catalina Trail (Photo courtesy of Tara Karineh)

“We hoped that having a baby didn’t have to tie you down — that perhaps, it might just do the opposite.”

— Tara Karineh

When Tara Karineh and her husband embarked on a thru-hike with their three-year-old daughter, Acacia, they weren’t sure she’d be able to finish the trail.

Acacia regularly went hiking with her parents, but a multi-day backpacking trip took things to a different level.

On this episode, Tara tells the story of their attempt of the Trans-Catalina Trail, exploring what it takes for a small child to accomplish something big.

Click here to read the full episode transcript.

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If you enjoy this story, you might like the episode “Fractured Self.” It’s about coming to terms with your new identity after becoming a parent.

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8 Miles in NYC

How walking to work can help you belong

Kelsie Wilkins’ walk to work took her through the heart of Midtown Manhattan (Photo by Kelsie Wilkins)

“I had been considered a big fish in a medium-sized pond. Now, I was a crumb-sized dust particle in a sea of craziness.”

— Kelsie Wilkins

When Kelsie Wilkins moved to New York City, she quickly became overwhelmed. She was surrounded by more people than she had ever been around in her life, yet she felt an acute sense of isolation. She had never felt so alone in a crowd.

But eventually she did something that helped her belong. It began with a walk, and ended with a sense of camaraderie and connection.

On this episode, Kelsie shares her story.

Read the full episode transcript here.

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If you enjoy this story, you might like the episode “Before It’s Too Late.” It’s also about the unexpected ways we find human connection.

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Nice Guys Can Finish First

How kindness can help you win

Noam Osband bikes across the Brooklyn Bridge (PHoto courtesy Noam Osband)

“There’s something so meaningful about the fact the friendliest way to cross the bridge is also the most effective. It feels like a Biblical parable, a reward for kindness.”

— Noam Osband

New York City isn't known for being bike friendly. The streets are busy, drivers are impatient, and pedestrians often clog the bike lanes. So if you're a cyclist, it often seems like shouting is the only way to get anywhere.

But several years ago, something happened on the Brooklyn Bridge that changed the way a man named Noam Osband thinks about biking in the city. His story explores how we communicate with strangers — and how to get what you want, the friendly way.

Also on this episode…

From left to right, Out There ambassador Ashley white, marine biologist Colin Howe, and Out There ambassador TIffany Duong

“It is a space of psychological and physical safety, for all.”

— Ashley White

Earlier this month, we invited you to share your vision of an outdoor utopia.

We wanted to hear your ideas for a more perfect world: what would the outdoors look like? How would you feel? How would that be different from now?

Your responses surprised us.

A few of you dreamed up a true utopia — an imaginary place where everything is idyllic. But a lot of you described places that actually exist. Places you love. Places you long to return to.

At the end of this episode, we share some of our favorite moments from the voice messages you sent.

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The voices on the Outdoor Utopia montage are: Britany Greenwalt, founder of The 11th Essential, Out There ambassadors Tiffany Duong and Ashley White, nature illustrator Rosalie Haizlett, marine biologist Colin Howe, and naturalist Francis Mendoza.

Special thanks to Cara Schaefer and Sheeba Joseph for their assistance with the Outdoor Utopia project.

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Better Than Fun

How a lonely time can offer emotional healing

Willow Belden on a solo trip to Utah (photo by Willow Belden)

“I’ve always been a closet introvert and cherished ‘me time.’ But I also felt lonely. With no parents and no significant other, I was keenly aware that I wasn’t a priority — for anyone.”

— Willow Belden

This year has been a time of profound isolation. Many of us are alone for the holidays, without our families, at a time when connections are sorely needed.

But, hard as it may seem, being alone is not always bad.

This episode takes place in the desert in Utah back in 2015, and it explores how something that initially seemed sad and lonely turned out to be an emotional victory.

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Back to the Real World

Returning home after a life-changing thru-hike

Paul Barach hiked the Pacific Crest Trail in 2017. (Photo courtesy Paul Barach)

“I’d spent 163 days unwrapping this incredible gift, now there was that hollow feeling you get on Christmas evening, surrounded by empty boxes.”

— Paul Barach

Grand adventures often change us. They help us process complicated emotions and work through our problems. We emerge happier, more at peace with the world.

But what if the forward progress is temporary? What if all the good vibes end, when you return to the “real world”?

On this episode, Paul Barach shares the story of his Pacific Crest Trail thru-hike, and explores the difficult process of going home to a life that looks bleak and broken.

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After Getting Sober

Redefining yourself after losing the thing you loved most

Photo courtesy Brendan Leonard

“You’re in this moment where you cannot think about anything else. You have this extreme focus. … And I had not felt that mental relaxation, where my brain stopped and only focused on one thing, since I was drinking.”

— Brendan Leonard

Fresh out of college, Brendan Leonard suffered from alcohol addiction. 

He got sober, but drinking had been his favorite thing. It was what defined him. After alcohol was taken away from him, he didn't know who he was anymore.

On this episode, he joins me to talk about the difficult process of creating a new life for himself. For Brendan, that new life came about through rock climbing. And it happened completely by accident.

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Get featured on our New Years episode

As we head into 2021, we’re taking a moment to look ahead and envision a more perfect world. A more perfect outdoors. And we want to hear from you.

Click the link below to send us a voice memo describing your outdoor utopia. How do you feel in it? How is it different from now?

If you send us your input by Dec. 16, we might air part (or all) of it on the show!

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Passing

The weight of our exchanges with strangers on the trail

Barbara Jensen is an avid hiker (photo courtesy Barbara Jensen)

“Not only am I never recognized for the man I am, I'm then also disrespected as the woman I appear to be.”

— Barbara Jensen

When we pass people on the trail, we often exchange quick greetings — simple exchanges that recognize our fellow hikers and show that we are no threat.

But sometimes — whether intentionally or not — the words we share with strangers in the wilderness end up being hurtful, or invasive. Sometimes, these exchanges exacerbate frustrations and wounds created by a lifetime of discrimination.

On this episode, Barbara Jensen shares their experience as a gender-neutral hiker, and invites us to adopt a new trail etiquette.

Subscribe to Out There on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you stream podcasts.

Support Out There

There are several convenient ways to give:

If you prefer to mail us a check, please make it payable to Out There and mail to PO Box 2331, Laramie, WY 82073.

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For 15% off your Kula Cloth order, enter promo code “OUTTHERE2” at checkout.

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Changemakers

We’re working to make the outdoors more inclusive; here’s how you can help

“I want to create safe spaces outdoors. I want people to feel comfortable and un-triggered.”

— Mercy M’fon Shammah

Out There is working to shift the definition of “outdoorsy.”

We believe you don’t have to be athletic, able-bodied, or cisgender to be outdoorsy. You don’t have to wear high-tech clothing or use fancy gear. You don’t have to summit mountains or paddle raging rivers. And you don’t have to be white.

We’re working to rewrite the narrative through the stories we tell and the guests we invite on the show. And this week, we’re doing something additional.

Dec. 1 is Giving Tuesday, and we’re raising money.

Twenty percent of the money we raise this week will be donated to Wild Diversity, an organization dedicated to making the outdoors safe and welcoming to all.

Wild Diversity facilitates outdoor adventures, workshops, and education, with the goal of creating a sense of belonging in the outdoors for the BIPOC and LGBTQ communities.

The rest of the money we raise this week will support individuals who are helping change the narrative.

Out There is an independent production, and we operate on a shoestring budget.

Society often glorifies projects that are labors of love. But when a podcast is a labor of love, it excludes a lot of people from participating. If you can’t pay competitive wages, not everyone can afford to come on board, no matter how valuable the experience they gain.

This isn’t just true for Out There; it’s true for the media industry as a whole. It’s a broken system, and as a small, underfunded production, we find ourselves constantly grappling with how to avoid being a part of the problem.

We want to do our best to be a part of the solution, not the problem. So we’re coming to you today with a heartfelt request.

If Out There brightens your day, and if you want to help make the show truly accessible to all, please make a contribution today.

Eighty percent of your gift will go toward paying our staff and future interns better. And 20 percent will go to Wild Diversity, to support their work in making the outdoors more inclusive.

You can make a donation in any amount; no gift is too small.

If you’re already supporting Out There on Patreon, THANKYOU! If you’re able to make an additional one-time donation this week, you’ll be doing even more to support fairness in the workplace and in nature.

There are several convenient ways to give…

If you prefer to mail us a check, please make it payable to Out There and mail to PO Box 2331, Laramie, WY 82073.

A Conversation with Wild Diversity’s Founder

On this bonus episode, we talk with Mercy M’fon Shammah, the founder and executive director of Wild Diversity. We hear about her vision for the organization, her dream of creating a world in which groups like Wild Diversity are no longer necessary, and her efforts to make the outdoors safe and welcoming for all. Plus: how YOU can help!

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