In the Long Run

How much perseverance is too much?

A trail race in Moab, UTah (Photo by the contributor of this story, anonymous)

"In hindsight, there were so many red flags in my marriage. But, in my mind, you don’t quit."

We live in a society that honors persistence. We celebrate people who tough it out and finish what they start.

But how do you know when you've taken it too far? Where is the line between a healthy amount of perseverance, and blind stubbornness?

Today's story is about learning when to drop out — both in a race, and in a relationship.

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Conservation Refugees

What if humans aren’t always bad for their own ecosystems?

Every year, the Van Gujjars migrate from the lowlands of India into the Himalayas with their herds of buffaloes. (Photo by Michael Benanav)

“I had always … thought that national parks can only be a good thing. And I had never really imagined that people had been living in them.”

— Michael Benanav

A lot of conservation efforts focus on the negative impacts people have on the environment. Humans are seen as an invasive species, and their presence is assumed to upset the natural balance.

But what if it’s not so clearcut?

On this episode, we explore what happens when conservation efforts end up having side effects that are, at best, questionable.

My guest is Michael Benanav, author of the book Himalaya Bound, which follows a group of nomads in India who are desperately clinging to an ancient way of life.

The Van Gujjars live in perfect harmony with nature, playing a vital role in their own ecosystem. But they’re under threat — ironically, due to conservation efforts.

Want to read more about the Van Gujjar’s? Here’s where you can find Michael Benanav’s book Himalaya Bound.

Special thanks to Eric Mack for production help on this episode. Eric is a producer for Warm Regards, a podcast about the warming of the planet.

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Just for Me

Redefining what it means to stand your ground

Postponing responsibilities in the name of playtime (Photo by Willow Belden)

“I knew I could be dogged about achieving things I had to do, but being just as dogged in the name of playtime was new for me.”

— Willow Belden

My mother always told me I shouldn’t take “no” for an answer. If you don’t get what you want, she said, try again. Keep asking. Stick to your guns.

Growing up, I took that advice to heart: whatever the task at hand, I pushed forward with dogged determination.

But in 2018, a traumatic accident left me suddenly powerless to complete even the simplest of tasks. In the aftermath of that experience, my outlook on what it means to back down was turned on its head, and I started standing up for myself in a new way.

On this episode, I share the story of what happened.

Special thanks to Becky Jensen for editing the script for this story.

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Founded over 35 years ago by fishermen who wanted to stay on the water longer, Costa sunglasses are engineered to help people across all pursuits make the most of their time on the water. For those who need water to breathe.

What You Can Find in Glaciers

A hunting trip with friends that led to a one-of-a-kind discovery

“We were chosen to find him. It wasn’t a coincidence.”

— Bill Hamlin

On this episode, we bring you a guest story from the podcast Outlandish, a show that focuses on stories from our public lands.

The story is about a remarkable discovery that happened in the wilderness of Canada. It takes us behind the scenes on the hunt of a lifetime, and looks at the fascinating things we can learn about our past by exploring the places where glaciers have melted away.

In addition to the story, we bring you an interview with Liz Townley, the mastermind behind Outlandish. We talk with her about her show, and about the broader effort to get more Americans involved in shaping the future of our national forests.

Hear more from Outlandish

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My Own Way

A tree lover’s path to embracing nature — a little differently

“Having grown up on a farm without running water or indoor plumbing, I don’t equate being in the woods at night with relaxation.”

— Carolyn McDonald

Carolyn McDonald adores trees. She even spends time pondering what trees would say if they could talk.

But she’s not the typical outdoorsy type; the very idea of camping gives her the shivers.

On this episode, Carolyn shares her story. She takes us from rural North Carolina to the streets of Paris, and explores what it’s like to love nature in a manner that defies society’s expectations.

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Pleasure in Pain

Finding magic in the muck on the Appalachian Trail

“We don’t have to live in a constant state of struggle, yet life would be pretty boring if it was smooth sailing all the time.”

— Heather Daya Rideout

Most of us want to speed through the hard times; we want to get to a place where life feels smooth and easy.

But what if the line between good times and bad isn’t so black and white? What if hardship can actually be enjoyable?

On this episode, Heather Daya Rideout takes us from the beaches of Thailand to the mountains of Maine, and tells of a an encounter with strangers on the Appalachian Trail that completely changed her perspective on pleasure and pain.

Special thanks to Amah Devi for help with recording this episode.

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That's Just Not Me

What would it take for you to change your mind on parenthood?

(Photo courtesy Adrienne Lindholm)

“He wanted to be a father. … And he wasn’t going to accept ‘no’ and still be in a relationship with me.”

— Adrienne Lindholm

Growing up, Adrienne Lindholm was dead set against having children. She didn’t like kids, and she felt that parenthood would force her to give up the things she loved most in life.

But as time went on, her husband became more and more determined to start a family. Eventually, she was faced with an ultimatum: have kids, or lose her relationship.

Adrienne wrote a memoir called It Happened Like This, which chronicles her life in Alaska and her dilemma surrounding motherhood. She joins us on this episode to talk about it.

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Before It's Too Late

One woman’s quest to save endangered memories

Shannon Prince was the first black person many Mongolians had ever seen, and as a result, they were often curious about her skin and hair. (Photo courtesy SHannon Prince)

“For [my grandparents], the forest was like a pharmacy.  For me, it’s more like a medicine cabinet.”

— Shannon Prince

Shannon Prince comes from a family with a rich relationship to the natural world. Her Cherokee ancestors were skilled at using plants to heal the deepest of wounds, and Shannon grew up with the understanding that nature could — quite literally — save you.

But her family’s eco-literacy had been stripped away over the generations, and by the time Shannon came along, there wasn’t much left to teach her.

Yearning to rediscover forgotten knowledge, Shannon traveled across the world, to a place where ancient traditions were more intact than her own.

On this episode, she shares her story. It’s a story that takes us from Houston, Texas, to the remote meadows of Outer Mongolia. And it explores the surprising things that can happen to us on a personal level, when we attempt to preserve a way of life that’s slowly being stripped away.

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Noise for the Soul

When urban tumult brings you inner peace

Fire Trucks in New York City. (Photo by Alex Eggerking)

“Deep down, I know there is something in me that needs a sea of humanity around me — a certain frenetic energy — to feel at ease.”

— Alex Eggerking

We often hear about people escaping to nature as an antidote to stress.

The world is hectic, our lives are busy, and quiet places can help us find some inner peace. Or so we’re told.

But what if it isn’t so simple for everyone? What if some people need busier urban environments — and not just for the career opportunities, or the lifestyle, or the conveniences they afford — but in order to feel at peace?

This episode draws us into one woman’s realization that living in a big city — a place that assaults your senses every time you walk outside — a place where the concept of ‘outside’ is about as far removed from nature as it gets — might be just what her soul has been searching for all along.

Alex Eggerking tells her story.

Want to hear more music from Alex’s punk band, the Voms?

Here’s their website, and here they are on Facebook and Instagram.

Alex drumming with the Voms in New York City. (Photo courtesy Alex Eggerking)

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Founded over 35 years ago by fishermen who wanted to stay on the water longer, Costa Sunglasses are engineered to help people across all pursuits make the most of their time on the water. For those who need water to breathe.

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Controlling Chaos

How fighting a wildfire can put you in the driver’s seat of your own life

Photo by Ryan Heffernan

“In those moments, I felt like I was at the center of the world … and there was nothing else that mattered.”

— Alex Jablonski

This episode is about control.

On a very concrete level, it’s about control of wildfires.

But on a deeper level, we’re exploring how people can take control of their lives — whether that’s navigating the shift from childhood to adulthood, or figuring out how to get your life back on track after you’ve traveled to very dark places.

My guests are Alex Jablonski and Kahlil Hudson, the producers of a film called Wildland. The film follows a fire crew in Oregon over the course of one summer.

On this episode, I talk with them about the deeply personal forces that draw people to wildland firefighting; about the unparalleled mental highs that come with the job; and about the surprising bonds that form between people who seem to have nothing in common.

And finally, we discuss how controlling nature can help you gain control over your own life, too.

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Single in Your 30s

No partner, no soulmate — no problem?

The solo hike that put everything into perspective. (Photo courtesy Mara Kuhn)

Most of us want a life partner. But what if your soulmate never materializes?

The older you get, the more distressing single-hood can seem. You watch friends getting married; you see their children grow up; and you start to wonder whether something is wrong with you. Why is there no special someone for you?

Mara Kuhn used to be in the same boat.

But somewhere along the way, everything changed.

On this episode, she shares her story. It’s a story that takes us from the deep south to the highest peak in Colorado, and explores how a person can fall in love with being alone.

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“In between relationships, I felt like … I was in a holding pattern, waiting for my real life to begin.”

— Mara Kuhn

In the Name of Love

How much compromise is too much?

Dani Harris cooks dinner during a cross-country road trip (Photo courtesy Dani Harris)

We hear it again and again: relationships require compromise.

But what happens when you realize you’ve been letting your own identity slip away, for the benefit of a relationship?

Today’s story comes to us from a woman named Dani Harris. It’s about young love and a cross-country road trip, and it shows just how hard it can be to stand up for yourself when you care deeply about another person.

“It was like I had been shoving my needs inside of a duffel bag, … maintaining my image as a girlfriend who was always easy-going and forgiving.”

— Dani Harris

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The Truths We Hold

An Armenian, a Turk, a 4,000-mile bike trip, and a history that doesn't match up

Raffi (left) and Ersin (right) finsih a cross-country bicycle trip at the Golden Gate Bridge in California. (Photo courtesy Raffi Wartanian)

This is a story about our beliefs — about things we’re brought up to know to be true. Beliefs so strong and powerful that they shape the identity, culture, and attitudes of an entire nation.

We all have these kinds of beliefs — things we’ve been taught our entire lives. But what causes us to begin to question them?

“He did not believe that there was an Armenian genocide. And we kept our distance.” — Raffi

On this episode, we have a guest story from Kerning Cultures, a podcast dissecting the complex narratives of the Middle East. It’s a story about what happens when we’re faced with a truth that contradicts our own.

Producer Jackie Sofia brings us the story.

“They would learn that I'm Turkish, and then they would call me a rapist … or a murderer.” — Ersin

Certain names and details of places have been kept out of this episode at the request of the people who were interviewed for the story.

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Prices are up to 30% less than retail. And Out There listeners can take an ADDITIONAL 25% off their first order.

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Becoming a Secular Pilgrim

A thousand miles on the Camino de Santiago

Hikers on The Camino De Santiago (Photo by Beth Jusino)

Beth Jusino was not the kind of person you’d expect to go on a pilgrimage that involved walking 1,000 miles.

She was neither outdoorsy nor religious, and she wasn’t plagued by the kind of traumatic experiences that often prompt people to embark on big journeys.

But she was burnt out.

Craving a break from her hectic life, she set her sights on the Camino de Santiago, a pilgrimage route through Europe dating back to the Middle Ages.

Her book Walking to the End of the World chronicles the trip, and on this episode, she joins us to talk about it.

Beth’s story is a testament to the beautiful things that can happen when you stop saying, “I could never do that.” And it’s a powerful reminder that disentangling ourselves from our responsibilities and compulsions can help us grow and thrive.

“I’m glad that we took this trip for as long as we did — I’m glad that we went for 79 days — because it took that long to un-peel my fingers, one by one, from my need to plan and control.”

— Beth Jusino

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Seeing the Forest through the Trees

One person’s journey from PhD to planting trees

Noam Osband spends a season planting trees in Canada. (Photo courtesy Noam Osband)

Overachievement. The word conjures up specific kinds of feats: high grades, promotions, success in the traditional sense. Things that are unambiguously good.

But what happens when you realize the quest to achieve has been holding you back?

On this episode, producer Noam Osband shares the story of something surprising that happened while he was researching his PhD dissertation. His story that takes us from the hills of Arkansas to the forests of Canada, and introduces us to the world of migrant workers whose job it is to plant the trees that feed our timber industry.

It’s a story that questions our desire to get ahead, and shows what happens when you're willing to take your gaze away from your goal.

“Hearing some Harvard schmuck complain about too much schooling is the most insufferable of first-world problems. But there’s also something universal ... about realizing maybe you don’t want the lifestyle that you’ve been taught is the good life.”

— Noam Osband

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BONUS EPISODE: Meet the Ambassadors

Out There’s ambassadors share tear-jerking stories of joy, pain, hope and love

Post-partum depression. Anxiety over gender identity. Anorexia. Struggles with weight. A cancer diagnosis during pregnancy.

The first cohort of Out There ambassadors have very real challenges to talk about, despite some of the gorgeous photos they’re posting on social media. On this bonus episode, we introduce them.

Our ambassadors are listeners who are volunteering their time to help spark discussions amongst the Out There community, and introduce the show to new listeners. Today, we let each of them tell you a little about themselves. They talk about their hopes, their dreams, their struggles — all the very real things they’re dealing with as they navigate this crazy world we live in.

Their stories are raw and vulnerable and sad and beautiful, and — fair warning — you’ll likely be in tears by the end of the episode.

“My five-year-old ... knows his mum has cancer. And he knows that the cancer will be in my body for the rest of my life.”

— Tess Ley

“I get a lot of pushback ... from older women, about traveling solo and spending time, especially in the outdoors.”

— Stacia Bennett

“I know I should be grateful that I have this [job] that helps me pay for stuff, like a roof over my head and food and our trips. But ... it’s just not a job that I feel that I can be proud of.”

— Jaye Groves

Well-Meaning But Clueless White People

We wanted Out There to be inclusive, and we failed. Now what?

a handful of Out There stories have been by or about people of color — but far too few. In 2019 we want to do better. (Photos courtesy Jen Kinney, Rahawa Haile, Tiffany Duong, katrin redfern, susan shain, and kayla bordelon)

The outdoors industry is notoriously white, male and affluent. And the podcasting industry isn’t always much better at giving space for diverse voices.

Part of our mission at Out There is to make the concept of ‘the outdoors’ more accessible to all. But so far, we don’t have a great track record.

Contrary to our intentions, this has become a show mostly about white people — and while we’re at it, mostly straight, upper middle class white people.

On this episode, Host Willow Belden and Business Development Director Alex Eggerking sit down for an honest conversation about how we got here, and what we hope to change in the future.

“It makes me feel like this well-intentioned but ultimately clueless white person.”

— Alex Eggerking

“We’re perpetuating problems, when we wanted to be doing the opposite.”

— Willow Belden

Beyond Repair?

Trying to fix a relationship that’s hit rock bottom

Adrian Fernandez guides a raft down the Yellowstone River in Montana. (Photo courtesy Adrian Fernandez)

Adrian Fernandez thought he would never speak to his father again. His dad had ruined everything, and the situation seemed hopeless.

But sometimes, the people who hurt us most are the only ones we can turn to for help.

On this episode, Adrian shares his story. It’s a story of anger, desperation and longing. It takes us from suburban New Jersey to rural Montana, and it explores the surprising things that can happen when you feel you’ve hit rock bottom.

“Mom and Dad loved each other deeply, but they were constantly at odds. ... As a kid, I’d sit in my room listening to them scream, trying to decipher who had done what — who I should direct my resentment towards.”

— Adrian Fernandez

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Crag Rats

What happens when you get hurt in a place where ambulances can’t go?

Photo by Richard Hallman

On this episode, we have a guest story from the podcast Hear in the Gorge, about what happens when something goes terribly wrong in the outdoors.

You might think the individuals who get hurt or killed in the wilderness are mostly hardcore outdoorspeople — diehards who go to extremes and take excessive risks. But a lot of backcountry accidents happen to people who are just out for a quick day hike or camping trip.

Hear in the Gorge Host Sarah Fox brings us the story of an accident that happened to a 10-year-old boy in Oregon, and she gives us a behind-the-scenes look at the Crag Rats, the oldest mountain search and rescue team in the U.S. They’re the people who get called to save lives in places where ambulances can’t get to. And they’re all volunteers.

“There was a big part of me that figured that help would come, just by knowing where my phone was at, or knowing where the parking lot was at.”

— Kim Hancock

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Perfect Strangers

White House Landing Camps (photo by Stephanie Cohn)

Can fleeting interactions with visitors be enough of a social life?

The 100-Mile Wilderness is a notoriously tough stretch of the Appalachian Trail. It’s deep in the north woods of Maine and is one of the longest distances thru-hikers have to navigate without getting to a town.

In the middle of this wilderness are Bill and Linda Ware. They run a sporting camp called White House Landing, where tired hikers can get a hot meal and a shower, and spend the night in a real bed.

It’s obvious why hikers appreciate their hospitality. But what’s in it for Bill and Linda? Why would you choose to live like that — off in the wilderness, totally removed from friends and family? How do you keep from getting lonely, when your only human interactions are with hikers who stay a night or two at most?

On this episode, producer Stephanie Cohn takes us to White House Landing and explores the surprising social magic that can happen when strangers meet in the woods.

“I had rose-colored glasses the size of my head! But I was up for the challenge, and here we are 26 years later.”

— Bill Ware

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